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	<title>Comments on: Game 4: Wings 1, Stars 3</title>
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	<link>http://onthewingsblog.com/2008/05/15/game-4-wings-1-stars-4/</link>
	<description>by true Citizens of Hockeytown</description>
	<pubDate>Mon, 06 Oct 2008 17:56:06 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: A Valid Argument</title>
		<link>http://onthewingsblog.com/2008/05/15/game-4-wings-1-stars-4/#comment-57368</link>
		<dc:creator>A Valid Argument</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 May 2008 11:02:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://onthewingsblog.com/?p=2251#comment-57368</guid>
		<description>Brian,

Quite an over-reaction. Relax. I also read Megan's comment, but I wasn’t hissing and moaning over it. And the way that I react to things is clearly the way that everyone else should too.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Brian,</p>
<p>Quite an over-reaction. Relax. I also read Megan&#8217;s comment, but I wasn’t hissing and moaning over it. And the way that I react to things is clearly the way that everyone else should too.</p>
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		<title>By: Brian</title>
		<link>http://onthewingsblog.com/2008/05/15/game-4-wings-1-stars-4/#comment-57367</link>
		<dc:creator>Brian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 May 2008 03:26:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://onthewingsblog.com/?p=2251#comment-57367</guid>
		<description>"Brian, I take issue with the way you criticize any Wings fan that dares show emotion after a bad call or a tough game. Just because someone doesn’t react the exact same way you do doesn’t make them wrong. You talk about how you didn’t freak out about the Pens no-goal as if that somehow makes you better. I didn’t realize you were the standard by which all emotion should be measured. Would you mind sending me an email next time I’m allowed to be frustrated or angry?"


I don't take issue with "any Wings fan that dares show emotion after a bad call or a tough game." I was specifically reacting to what Matt said on his blog, and I thought this blog was open to comments. So I don't quite understand why you joke that I should send you an email next time you're allowed to be frustrated or angry. None of my comments were directed at you in the first place...

If you post something like that, you've gotta expect some mixed reactions...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Brian, I take issue with the way you criticize any Wings fan that dares show emotion after a bad call or a tough game. Just because someone doesn’t react the exact same way you do doesn’t make them wrong. You talk about how you didn’t freak out about the Pens no-goal as if that somehow makes you better. I didn’t realize you were the standard by which all emotion should be measured. Would you mind sending me an email next time I’m allowed to be frustrated or angry?&#8221;</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t take issue with &#8220;any Wings fan that dares show emotion after a bad call or a tough game.&#8221; I was specifically reacting to what Matt said on his blog, and I thought this blog was open to comments. So I don&#8217;t quite understand why you joke that I should send you an email next time you&#8217;re allowed to be frustrated or angry. None of my comments were directed at you in the first place&#8230;</p>
<p>If you post something like that, you&#8217;ve gotta expect some mixed reactions&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: ludmeister</title>
		<link>http://onthewingsblog.com/2008/05/15/game-4-wings-1-stars-4/#comment-57366</link>
		<dc:creator>ludmeister</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 May 2008 00:58:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://onthewingsblog.com/?p=2251#comment-57366</guid>
		<description>Umm... "Again, it is" not "to that level yet"... of the WWF... yet... oops  :-)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Umm&#8230; &#8220;Again, it is&#8221; not &#8220;to that level yet&#8221;&#8230; of the WWF&#8230; yet&#8230; oops  <img src='http://onthewingsblog.com/wp/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' /></p>
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		<title>By: ludmeister</title>
		<link>http://onthewingsblog.com/2008/05/15/game-4-wings-1-stars-4/#comment-57365</link>
		<dc:creator>ludmeister</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 May 2008 00:56:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://onthewingsblog.com/?p=2251#comment-57365</guid>
		<description>I don't believe that the Stars and the Wings translate to the professional wrestlers.  Each NHL team is trying the very best they can and realize that they have no recourse to what the referees have to say.  Their word is law; every player's part is to live with it.  So it is with the players, so it is with the fans who watch.

I do agree with you, Penny, in that human error can and will be a factor in hockey, as it is a very fast sport and the refs generally are doing the best that they can.  Certain players have been singled out by various teams (see Holmstrom, Ryan Smith, Chris Pronger as a short but characteristic list) and the NHL has put refs on point to watch out for shenanigans.  

My question is, why is it that calls are made on certain players not on the basis of something they just did but on the basis of their reputation?  When that happens, calls become made up and not based on objectivity.  The salary cap and league parity doesn't make a difference in this.  Even poor officiating doesn't make a difference if it goes both ways.  If we say that the NHL Rule Book is nothing but an unheeded bunch of ideals that we can't adhere to, nothing but some nice suggestions to better enjoy the great sport of hockey, fine and good.  In that case, let's fire the refs and go to the grand ol' colosseum to watch the hockey match.  

But singling certain players out on the basis of reputation is not acceptable.  That is why I say the NHL is becoming WWF like.  Again, it is to that level yet, but Wings fans have seen enough "phantom calls" against them that I am starting to wonder if Mr. Bettman isn't trying to get his "parity" in artificial manners.

All I'm arguing for is upholding an objective officiating standard.  Something like Baroque said-- if my wife says, "Why were they alloed to do that", or "why was this a penalty" I should like to be able to give her an answer.  She's from the South and she's seriously wondering right now why she should like the NHL with all the deception going on.

Sorry for the length of my posts... guess I just needed to sound off my frustrations.  I do thank you Penny, Jason, and Brian for being "the other side of the coin" that causes me to think through my position to be able to state it as cogently as possible.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t believe that the Stars and the Wings translate to the professional wrestlers.  Each NHL team is trying the very best they can and realize that they have no recourse to what the referees have to say.  Their word is law; every player&#8217;s part is to live with it.  So it is with the players, so it is with the fans who watch.</p>
<p>I do agree with you, Penny, in that human error can and will be a factor in hockey, as it is a very fast sport and the refs generally are doing the best that they can.  Certain players have been singled out by various teams (see Holmstrom, Ryan Smith, Chris Pronger as a short but characteristic list) and the NHL has put refs on point to watch out for shenanigans.  </p>
<p>My question is, why is it that calls are made on certain players not on the basis of something they just did but on the basis of their reputation?  When that happens, calls become made up and not based on objectivity.  The salary cap and league parity doesn&#8217;t make a difference in this.  Even poor officiating doesn&#8217;t make a difference if it goes both ways.  If we say that the NHL Rule Book is nothing but an unheeded bunch of ideals that we can&#8217;t adhere to, nothing but some nice suggestions to better enjoy the great sport of hockey, fine and good.  In that case, let&#8217;s fire the refs and go to the grand ol&#8217; colosseum to watch the hockey match.  </p>
<p>But singling certain players out on the basis of reputation is not acceptable.  That is why I say the NHL is becoming WWF like.  Again, it is to that level yet, but Wings fans have seen enough &#8220;phantom calls&#8221; against them that I am starting to wonder if Mr. Bettman isn&#8217;t trying to get his &#8220;parity&#8221; in artificial manners.</p>
<p>All I&#8217;m arguing for is upholding an objective officiating standard.  Something like Baroque said&#8211; if my wife says, &#8220;Why were they alloed to do that&#8221;, or &#8220;why was this a penalty&#8221; I should like to be able to give her an answer.  She&#8217;s from the South and she&#8217;s seriously wondering right now why she should like the NHL with all the deception going on.</p>
<p>Sorry for the length of my posts&#8230; guess I just needed to sound off my frustrations.  I do thank you Penny, Jason, and Brian for being &#8220;the other side of the coin&#8221; that causes me to think through my position to be able to state it as cogently as possible.</p>
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		<title>By: Megan</title>
		<link>http://onthewingsblog.com/2008/05/15/game-4-wings-1-stars-4/#comment-57364</link>
		<dc:creator>Megan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 May 2008 00:51:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://onthewingsblog.com/?p=2251#comment-57364</guid>
		<description>I have to defend Matt, here. You wanna call him a homer, fine. Do that. I have to disagree. He is usually quite objective and does his best to remain so. A lot of his anger here is as a hockey fan, not a Red Wings fan. Sure, the Detroit fan in him added a lot of anger. But you don't have to be a Detroit fan to know that was a bad call. You do, however, have to be a Dallas fan to even try to argue that it wasn't. 
As far as losing respect for Turco, this comment was just the icing on the cake. I used to love Turco. He's a Michigan boy, and he seemed so genuine and down to earth. Plus, he was really good and just didn't get credit for it. I almost felt bad for him when he couldn't ever find a way to beat the Red Wings. All that has been flushed down the crapper. From game one on, he's been whining to the media about everything (a la Vokoun ca. 2006) and at the same time boasting about his team, after every loss. He's been so arrogant, and he has no right to be at this point. 
Then there's the fact that he makes comments about how the Wings have no class, all while he's hacking and slashing at anyone who comes near him (a la Roloson ca. pick a day). 
Brian, I take issue with the way you criticize any Wings fan that dares show emotion after a bad call or a tough game. Just because someone doesn't react the exact same way you do doesn't make them wrong. You talk about how you didn't freak out about the Pens no-goal as if that somehow makes you better. I didn't realize you were the standard by which all emotion should be measured. Would you mind sending me an email next time I'm allowed to be frustrated or angry?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have to defend Matt, here. You wanna call him a homer, fine. Do that. I have to disagree. He is usually quite objective and does his best to remain so. A lot of his anger here is as a hockey fan, not a Red Wings fan. Sure, the Detroit fan in him added a lot of anger. But you don&#8217;t have to be a Detroit fan to know that was a bad call. You do, however, have to be a Dallas fan to even try to argue that it wasn&#8217;t.<br />
As far as losing respect for Turco, this comment was just the icing on the cake. I used to love Turco. He&#8217;s a Michigan boy, and he seemed so genuine and down to earth. Plus, he was really good and just didn&#8217;t get credit for it. I almost felt bad for him when he couldn&#8217;t ever find a way to beat the Red Wings. All that has been flushed down the crapper. From game one on, he&#8217;s been whining to the media about everything (a la Vokoun ca. 2006) and at the same time boasting about his team, after every loss. He&#8217;s been so arrogant, and he has no right to be at this point.<br />
Then there&#8217;s the fact that he makes comments about how the Wings have no class, all while he&#8217;s hacking and slashing at anyone who comes near him (a la Roloson ca. pick a day).<br />
Brian, I take issue with the way you criticize any Wings fan that dares show emotion after a bad call or a tough game. Just because someone doesn&#8217;t react the exact same way you do doesn&#8217;t make them wrong. You talk about how you didn&#8217;t freak out about the Pens no-goal as if that somehow makes you better. I didn&#8217;t realize you were the standard by which all emotion should be measured. Would you mind sending me an email next time I&#8217;m allowed to be frustrated or angry?</p>
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		<title>By: Penny K</title>
		<link>http://onthewingsblog.com/2008/05/15/game-4-wings-1-stars-4/#comment-57363</link>
		<dc:creator>Penny K</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 May 2008 00:21:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://onthewingsblog.com/?p=2251#comment-57363</guid>
		<description>Once again. All this "the sky is falling" talk about the league is goofy. Its not any different than it has been for years and years on end. Bad calls will be made, human error will always be a factor (Which brings up the debate for instant replay) I do not understand the notion that the league has somehow fallen into the gutter. This league bashing is all a product of a knee jerk reaction. Remember...I am saying this as a HUGE Wings fan. Its one bad call, of which more will follow. If that goal had occured in overtime then it changes things quite a bit. The Stars won that game fair and square despite the bad call. AGAIN chill out, put away your ropes, torches and pitchforks and simply wait for Satuday to celebrate. In my mind if find it a fair assessment to label this blog story a reactionary piece. If you honestly think the NHL is turning into the WWF then I would ask how and why you have arrived at this lowly opinion of the league? The salary cap? Poor offciating? The rule changes? I cant for the life of me think of ONE thing that is drastic enough to compare the NHL to a bunch of roidhead hicks jumping on one another in the WWF. Go wings!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Once again. All this &#8220;the sky is falling&#8221; talk about the league is goofy. Its not any different than it has been for years and years on end. Bad calls will be made, human error will always be a factor (Which brings up the debate for instant replay) I do not understand the notion that the league has somehow fallen into the gutter. This league bashing is all a product of a knee jerk reaction. Remember&#8230;I am saying this as a HUGE Wings fan. Its one bad call, of which more will follow. If that goal had occured in overtime then it changes things quite a bit. The Stars won that game fair and square despite the bad call. AGAIN chill out, put away your ropes, torches and pitchforks and simply wait for Satuday to celebrate. In my mind if find it a fair assessment to label this blog story a reactionary piece. If you honestly think the NHL is turning into the WWF then I would ask how and why you have arrived at this lowly opinion of the league? The salary cap? Poor offciating? The rule changes? I cant for the life of me think of ONE thing that is drastic enough to compare the NHL to a bunch of roidhead hicks jumping on one another in the WWF. Go wings!</p>
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		<title>By: Baroque</title>
		<link>http://onthewingsblog.com/2008/05/15/game-4-wings-1-stars-4/#comment-57362</link>
		<dc:creator>Baroque</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 May 2008 00:01:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://onthewingsblog.com/?p=2251#comment-57362</guid>
		<description>The tough thing about all this is that it makes all the conspiracy ideas seem legitimate, just a little bit.  I don't go along with that because to pull off a solid conspiracy you require the participants to have competence, and the officiating isn't anything close to that.  I have a nagging feeling that despite all my logic, the league "wants" the Penguins to win the Cup because they don't know how to market anyone who isn't named Sidney Crosby, and they have spent his entire young career positioning him as some kind of league saviour, instead of one of many excellent young players.

I know it makes no sense, but the idea just keeps nagging at me.

And I don't want to invest time and emotion in a sport that I wonder might be fixed.  I don't like professional wrestling.

I most of all want to be able to explain to someone else exactly what a penalty is and why one was called on a play, and I can't do that anymore.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The tough thing about all this is that it makes all the conspiracy ideas seem legitimate, just a little bit.  I don&#8217;t go along with that because to pull off a solid conspiracy you require the participants to have competence, and the officiating isn&#8217;t anything close to that.  I have a nagging feeling that despite all my logic, the league &#8220;wants&#8221; the Penguins to win the Cup because they don&#8217;t know how to market anyone who isn&#8217;t named Sidney Crosby, and they have spent his entire young career positioning him as some kind of league saviour, instead of one of many excellent young players.</p>
<p>I know it makes no sense, but the idea just keeps nagging at me.</p>
<p>And I don&#8217;t want to invest time and emotion in a sport that I wonder might be fixed.  I don&#8217;t like professional wrestling.</p>
<p>I most of all want to be able to explain to someone else exactly what a penalty is and why one was called on a play, and I can&#8217;t do that anymore.</p>
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		<title>By: ludmeister</title>
		<link>http://onthewingsblog.com/2008/05/15/game-4-wings-1-stars-4/#comment-57360</link>
		<dc:creator>ludmeister</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 May 2008 23:18:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://onthewingsblog.com/?p=2251#comment-57360</guid>
		<description>I lost a lot of respect for Turco, when after the Game 2 scrum and his Game 2 loss of composure, had the audacity to say this about the Red Wings (not their fans, but the players themselves):

“We don’t think much of them on a personal, character level. We think that’s to our advantage.”

My respect for Turco (and I wasn't one to believe the pundits that talked about his record against the Wings, but rather said "we'll see how the series plays out and then decide that") has gone steadily down this series.  I feel like Matt does about Turco now... after hearing his apologetic of not feeling like he was free to make the save on the called back goal.  Homer never touched him.  He was free to move, but his view was obstructed.  Of course, that's Homer's job, and that's not a penalty by the book.  That was the reason that Turco gave for thinking the call was a fair one.  I would have had much more respect for Turco if he would have said, "I was fortunate that the referee gave me the benefit of the doubt right there.  I don't know whether the call was a good one or a bad one, but it was the call they made today."  

Instead, Turco had to add his reasoning.  There is no reasoning concerning the call.  There's no explaining it objectively.  That, I think, is what makes so many hockey fans upset today.  Some are more okay with the ambiguity than others, and that's okay.  But I think the league ought to also listen to those who have a bone to pick with them.  It just might make the NHL a better all around organization.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I lost a lot of respect for Turco, when after the Game 2 scrum and his Game 2 loss of composure, had the audacity to say this about the Red Wings (not their fans, but the players themselves):</p>
<p>“We don’t think much of them on a personal, character level. We think that’s to our advantage.”</p>
<p>My respect for Turco (and I wasn&#8217;t one to believe the pundits that talked about his record against the Wings, but rather said &#8220;we&#8217;ll see how the series plays out and then decide that&#8221;) has gone steadily down this series.  I feel like Matt does about Turco now&#8230; after hearing his apologetic of not feeling like he was free to make the save on the called back goal.  Homer never touched him.  He was free to move, but his view was obstructed.  Of course, that&#8217;s Homer&#8217;s job, and that&#8217;s not a penalty by the book.  That was the reason that Turco gave for thinking the call was a fair one.  I would have had much more respect for Turco if he would have said, &#8220;I was fortunate that the referee gave me the benefit of the doubt right there.  I don&#8217;t know whether the call was a good one or a bad one, but it was the call they made today.&#8221;  </p>
<p>Instead, Turco had to add his reasoning.  There is no reasoning concerning the call.  There&#8217;s no explaining it objectively.  That, I think, is what makes so many hockey fans upset today.  Some are more okay with the ambiguity than others, and that&#8217;s okay.  But I think the league ought to also listen to those who have a bone to pick with them.  It just might make the NHL a better all around organization.</p>
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		<title>By: Brian</title>
		<link>http://onthewingsblog.com/2008/05/15/game-4-wings-1-stars-4/#comment-57359</link>
		<dc:creator>Brian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 May 2008 23:05:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://onthewingsblog.com/?p=2251#comment-57359</guid>
		<description>"I’m sure you feel just as strong about the Cowboys as we do about our wings."

So anyone who doesn't join in with the over-reacting is automatically a Dallas fan? I'm actually from MI and a Wings fan for 10+ yrs.

There's a difference between being a passionate fan and throwing a ridiculous fit.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;I’m sure you feel just as strong about the Cowboys as we do about our wings.&#8221;</p>
<p>So anyone who doesn&#8217;t join in with the over-reacting is automatically a Dallas fan? I&#8217;m actually from MI and a Wings fan for 10+ yrs.</p>
<p>There&#8217;s a difference between being a passionate fan and throwing a ridiculous fit.</p>
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		<title>By: Justin</title>
		<link>http://onthewingsblog.com/2008/05/15/game-4-wings-1-stars-4/#comment-57358</link>
		<dc:creator>Justin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 May 2008 22:51:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://onthewingsblog.com/?p=2251#comment-57358</guid>
		<description>Nice rant, Matt. I missed the game due to work, so I guess I was fortunate I didn't have to go through the stages of rage and disbelief.

" I don’t think Marty said anything wrong…"

Tuco didn't say anything wrong? WRONG. He did. By agreeing with the call and claiming that he was not given a fair chance to make the save in the post-game interview. Too embarassed to admit you were beaten cleanly, Marty? Grow a ****ing pair and admit that it was a bad call. I've also lost quite a bit of respect for Tuco during this series.

I've had the same feelings about the NHL as a league for a while now. And it's not an overreaction just because my favourite team happens to be up 3 games to 1 in the WCF, as Brian claims. To be content and satisfied just because of that would be to be blind and ignorant of the situation in the league. There is too much wrong with the NHL right now and Bettman does nothing to solve those problems. But like Matt, I love the game too much to give it up.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nice rant, Matt. I missed the game due to work, so I guess I was fortunate I didn&#8217;t have to go through the stages of rage and disbelief.</p>
<p>&#8221; I don’t think Marty said anything wrong…&#8221;</p>
<p>Tuco didn&#8217;t say anything wrong? WRONG. He did. By agreeing with the call and claiming that he was not given a fair chance to make the save in the post-game interview. Too embarassed to admit you were beaten cleanly, Marty? Grow a ****ing pair and admit that it was a bad call. I&#8217;ve also lost quite a bit of respect for Tuco during this series.</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve had the same feelings about the NHL as a league for a while now. And it&#8217;s not an overreaction just because my favourite team happens to be up 3 games to 1 in the WCF, as Brian claims. To be content and satisfied just because of that would be to be blind and ignorant of the situation in the league. There is too much wrong with the NHL right now and Bettman does nothing to solve those problems. But like Matt, I love the game too much to give it up.</p>
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